>A pistol shouldn't be able to deal 7+ hearts of damage within 2 seconds regardless of their range limitations

They can't (anymore) that bug was fixed some days ago. See #developments and the new damage tables.

>swords a preferred weapon for 0-5 block range.

They have firmly held that position since the beginning of Nations and probably will till the end, unless shotguns are able to compete when added to Nations.

> They can't (anymore) that bug was fixed some days ago. See #developments and the new damage tables.

Development was for fixing extra damage while on horseback, it was also for less damage after 16 blocks. The wiki was updated with the stats. I'm talking about sidearms having 1 heart of damage per shot, having extra headshot damage and extra damage while shot on back. They deal half the damage of rifles while having more than 4x the fire rate. Everything was already tested. A pistol at melee range deals more damage than a sword by quite a lot by itself, not to mention other things you can do to improve it

If you want math here is math:
- Sword crit does 1.5-2 hearts of damage per 0.625 seconds (~2.8 hearts dps)
- A pistol, for example Mauser, deals 0.75 hearts per bullet, its full auto 10 bullets in about 3.3 seconds + 2.5 seconds reload. (1.3 hearts dps or 2.3 hearts dps burst) Other guns might do more dps if you land a headshot, the wiki does not mention how much the bonus is
- While the average dps is almost double for swords, its dps depends on how long they can be in range for crits while yours depends on the aim. In the usual scenario if you just circle around them, you will get critted about 4 times on average per cycle which lowers swords dps to 1.2 hearts. And that is if they manage to crit you in a combo. There are many ways to prevent someone from getting a combo on you.

> unless shotguns are able to compete when added to Nations

Shotguns 2 tap you in the back, the only downside is having 6 second reload but pretty sure you should be able to live that long

>I'm talking about sidearms having 1 heart of damage per shot, having extra headshot damage and extra damage while shot on back.

The only sidearm capable of that is the Colt Single Action Army, which has made a grand total of 101 nation kills over the past 9 months, not counting the amount of kills that weren't serious or outside sieges. So the numbers heavily point towards it being a sidearm not viable for combat unless it received a large buff which I'm unaware of.

>Shotguns 2 tap you in the back, the only downside is having 6 second reload but pretty sure you should be able to live that long

In my experience that's not the case but shotguns aren't a thing in nations if you're not counting anniversary items. It will need further testing before being introduced.

In my experience swords have been the primary close range weapon in nation sieges since forever, I haven't ever spotted you at a siege so I'm assuming you're using the Saigon map for this suggestion?

> So the numbers heavily point towards it being a sidearm not viable for combat

Not being used does not imply that it is not good. Tanks were not used for well over 2-3 years in sieges on ccnet and they were never weak, people just didnt use them. Also last hit for kills does not mean all damage was dealt that way. A sword is a better option if you can stick on top of them for a long period of time so its often used to finish people off when they panic or cant run around

> In my experience that's not the case

This was legit tested yesterday. Front hits do 2.5 hearts, shots in the back do 5. Stabbing in the back does 2.5 hearts as well

> I'm assuming you're using the Saigon map for this suggestion

Saigon map was used as the testing range since it should have same stats for weapons and its easier than getting someone to walk across the whole map or waste resources in nations.

> I haven't ever spotted you at a siege

I have been on a longer break from the server due to the fact that I lose braincells in every siege because people do not know what to do so that also goes to the point of just because something is not mainstream does not mean its not good

>Not being used does not imply that it is not good.
In terms of sidearms it does. The Colt M1911 has 4 times as many kills, the Mauser C96 has 6 times as many kills. Though I assume many of the latter were the direct result of it being the starter sidearm in Nations.

This does imply the CSAM is the inferior sidearm, that's why I'm confused as to why you mentioned it above the others.

>This was legit tested yesterday. Front hits do 2.5 hearts, shots in the back do 5. Stabbing in the back does 2.5 hearts as well

You should report this in a bug ticket, as those numbers are mathematically impossible following the wiki damages

Direct frontal hits are anywhere between 0.75 - 1.25 and back shots are between 1.25 - 1.75. The wiki does not mention a headshot bonus so I'm leaving that out.

>Saigon map was used as the testing range since it should have same stats for weapons and its easier than getting someone to walk across the whole map or waste resources in nations.

Only the admins know for certain whether the damages are identical because they have been different in the past. In Saigon the M1911 acted as a mid-range shotgun not too long ago. If you believe the damages are equal then you should open a bug ticket and explain how they are not in line with the wiki page.

A minor note about back shot damages which is articulated vaguely in the wiki:

"Shooting enemies in the back deals +50% damage." & "Backshot → +0.5 "

Those two lead to different damages which does not make sense to me, Zaify should clarify which one is right. Or does the 0.5 ️ stack with the 50% bonus?

> I'm confused as to why you mentioned it above the others

Its given as an example of a weapon that has extra damage on headshots (the math was done for mauser, 3.3 seconds to empty a mag, 7.5 hearts total damage, has 2-3x more "reach" than swords). In theory it should be doing more damage than mauser if it lands those headshots but the wiki does not say how much. It may not have that many kills because either the headshot bonus is garbage or people miss too often. If its the later then it is just given as an example of how if you are skilled enough with good aim can push the dps given as an example even further

> You should report this in a bug ticket, as those numbers are mathematically impossible following the wiki damages

The nations wiki does not have the shotgun included so there is nothing to report. What was confusing few days ago was that a single mag of a pistol was able to kill people, that might have been fixed since I haven't seen it happen again.

> Direct frontal hits are anywhere between 0.75 - 1.25 and back shots are between 1.25 - 1.75. The wiki does not mention a headshot bonus so I'm leaving that out.

that is pistol, the 2.5 hearts frontal and 5 back shots are shotgun as said above

> Only the admins know for certain whether the damages are identical because they have been different in the past

Yes, saigon is either identical so people can practice for wars or experimental damages where people can test if its balanced in combat or not. The sidearm damages seem to be close enough to be the same (to the wiki stats, unless the wiki is outdated damages compared to nations)

> Those two lead to different damages which does not make sense to me, Zaify should clarify which one is right. Or does the 0.5 ️ stack with the 50% bonus?

That as well as
"The M1911 will deal additional damage on headshots, like rifles"
not saying how much the extra headshot damage is, considering that some rifles have +1 heart and some have +0.5



The suggestion is about lowering the damage from the numbers I suggested, if the math on the damage is not correct, someone should fix it. As said above, a pistol like mauser has an average dps of 1.3 hearts per second including reload, while a rifle like gewer takes 11.5 seconds including reload to deal 12.5 hearts of damage (17.5 if headshot) making it do 1.08 hearts per second (1.52 on headshot). If the enemy is suppressed its dps would be on par with sidearms on non headshots. Although the snipers are serving their purpose correctly, I do not feel like sidearms should be dealing damage that is comparable to main weapons

Going by DPS alone is not the right method of balancing guns. If you have combat experience i.e Saigon duels then please share how often you win close combat (<16 blocks)
engagements against a good sword user.

Damage statistics are fine and all but they mean little on their own because even if a shotgun can kill in 4 hits, you're always going to miss bullets causing you to enter that terrible 6 second reload / counter attack. The same goes for pistols where the opponent has adequate time to organize themselves.

If you don't think sidearms should be the primary short distance weapon for gun users then what do you believe is the substitute for it? Shotguns work at <6 blocks but aren't added to nations, machine guns are bad and rifles are bad as well in close combat. This only leaves sidearms.

> Going by DPS alone is not the right method of balancing guns

It is when the gun can not kill an enemy (quickdrop) meaning you win the duel by dealing more damage and making the enemy use up more healing potions. Snipers on the other hand might sometimes kill an enemy early if they are not paying enough attention

> If you have combat experience i.e Saigon duels then please share how often you win close combat (<16 blocks) engagements against a good sword user

I tested on a friend of mine who is not garbage in pvp, even with a non optimized kit for that playstyle there was hardly anything he can do with a sword alone to counter it. The only times he can get a bit more damage was when I make a mistake and not when he plays differently. There are ways to push it way further beyond to the point of a sword physically not being able to do anything against it

> you're always going to miss bullets

its a shotgun, you dont need to aim that hard to hit it. Enemy can pot multiple times to negate the damage but you can still just run away for those 6 seconds and even tank a few crits. You do not even need to be that close for the damage to apply in full

> adequate time to organize themselves

During that reload of the pistol, you either go for a crit combo if you are close enough or refill hotbar, there is not much organizing to do. You are potions down from that mag burst while you werent even in the range. They can even swap to a sword and continue with that knowing that they have few potions more in the hotbar and wait for you to refill and then turn around to run and reload and repeat

> If you don't think sidearms should be the primary short distance weapon for gun users then what do you believe is the substitute for it?

Sidearms are sidearms, they aren't meant to be primary at anything. They are a second weapon to either use when you can not reload or fill a role your primary can not (for example to use for short ranges if you have a rifle or over 6 blocks if your primary is a sword). They are meant to be used as an "extra" to get that slightly higher damage. Their replacement for close ranges is of course any other main weapon. The only issue is that currently the machineguns which are meant for closer ranges are garbage at doing damage and are just meant to be a support weapon giving rifles more damage. An alternative is to give them more damage while suppressed bonus damage gets lowered. Or to add new sub machineguns that do not apply suppression or what I said at the start, have them do less damage if the enemy is too close (ranges less than 6-8 blocks) to make sword primary weapon for extreme close ranges since a lot of people are already used to them

> Or to add new sub machineguns that do not apply suppression

Would be a new group called "Assault rifles" featuring Sturmgewehr 44 aka STG-44 for example

you don’t go to sieges so how would you know what it’s like. sword is the dominant pvp method, guns are just used for support.

holy hell, bros writing and entire wiki page down in the suggestions

> you don’t go to sieges so how would you know what it’s like. sword is the dominant pvp method, guns are just used for support.

If you read up you will know that just because something is not used does not mean it is not viable or broken. I have been to couple sieges in the past and didnt like them due to how people are still lacking behind and using swords and doing random things so I never bothered to start playing again.

Another example, would you say that movecraft tank and heavy tank is good? well tanks existed since N1 so about 3-4 years. Yall just started using them this year (maybe two at max) massively. Were they before bad or people just didnt know how to use them? Exactly. Another example would be a shield. There are some people who would go to a fight with a compass in offhand instead of a shield. A shield can be used to block attacks while compass does nothing. Does everyone not using shields mean they are garbage? Every "pvper" that uses swords is using a standard kit that is agreed by some unknown people since its the least dumbest kit to play against. They are not using everything at their disposal to create a stronger kit since it would be quite painful to play against it and you lose braincells doing so. And not to mention that I highly doubt any of yall care to mess around with new kit ideas to see if they are better or not. Back in N1 when the server was 1.13, I was practicing bow boosting with instant hp arrows since that would allow you to have 64 of them in a single slot, saving you quite a lot more inventory space. Since no one used it did it mean that its garbage? No, it was quite busted however it required insane amounts of skill to pull off consistently but if done correctly it also gives you insane advantage in mobility.

I do not need to show up to every siege to know how things go. I have watched quite a lot of streams of sieges very often as well. There are a lot of things even in vanilla minecraft that are good yet people either do not know how to use them or do not want to. I have nothing against yall still using outdated methods, matter of fact please do it has nothing to do with me however do not show up in suggestions with a statement how "if everyone uses it, it must be the best" or "I don't see you, you must be a random". All the math for it is provided, you either argue how you can play against it aka how swords beat pistols and do more damage or save your opinions because they do not provide any real information that can be used to determine anything.

> holy hell, bros writing and entire wiki page down in the suggestions

Best way to get your suggestion across to staff team or other players is to get all the information behind it displayed so they get a full picture

This suggestion is bs and makes no sense, unless all ur PvP comes from /server pvp where guns are buffed. SWORDS are the main infantry weapon by far and most relevant one. Just look what gets the most kills

If anything guns should be buffed in general so more people are able to participate in sieges and nation building is easier. The odds of you landing all pistol shots from a mag when someone is jumping around on ur face are so low and should be rewarded with enough damage to not negate all the effort to literally 1 pot.

Even on Saigon you can get sword kills against way stronger guns, now imagine a CCNet siege on a banner 3 pistol spammers vs 3 sword users, or even a 1v1. Yeah nah the sword users will win